{"id":1574,"date":"2013-10-31T16:54:47","date_gmt":"2013-10-31T22:54:47","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/affirmation.org\/?p=1574"},"modified":"2021-10-03T08:07:20","modified_gmt":"2021-10-03T14:07:20","slug":"revelation-agency-and-integrity-a-discussion-of-comments-made-in-general-conference","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/affirmation.org\/es\/revelacion-agencia-e-integridad-una-discusion-de-comentarios-hechos-en-conferencia-general-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Revelaci\u00f3n, albedr\u00edo e integridad: una discusi\u00f3n de los comentarios hechos en la Conferencia General"},"content":{"rendered":"

Revelation, Agency, and Integrity: A Discussion of Comments Made in General Conference<\/span><\/h2>\n

On October 9 Affirmation sponsored a conference call to discuss the\u00a0recent LDS General Conference<\/a><\/strong>, which included statements by Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson, condemning same-sex marriage. What follows is a transcript of the discussion.<\/em><\/p>\n

\u00bb\u00a0See also:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Strategies for Dealing with Discrimination<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n\n
Index<\/strong><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n
The Panelists<\/a>
\nThe Purpose of This Panel<\/a>
\nPalpable Pain and Strong Emotions<\/a>
\nElder Oaks and the Meaning of Idolatry<\/a>
\nHandling Anxiety or Depression over General Conference Remarks<\/a>
\nRelying on the Spirit to Interpret General Conference<\/a>
\nGeneral Conference and the Recent Supreme Court Decision<\/a><\/td>\n		Using Our Free Agency to Chart Our Journey<\/a>
\nThe Church as \u201ca Finger Pointing to the Moon\u201d<\/a>
\nWe Are All Entitled to Personal Revelation\u00a0<\/a>
\nDealing with Hurtful Messages<\/a>
\nStrategies to \u201cSoften the Blow\u201d<\/a>
\nA Testimony of Your Wholeness<\/a>
\nYou Are Responsible for Your Safety\u00a0<\/a><\/td>\n		The Meaning(s) of Love<\/a>
\nMarriage and Procreative Powers<\/a>
\nSame-sex Couples and Sexual Desire<\/a>
\nThe Importance of Making Safety for Oneself<\/a>
\nResponding to Hurtful Comments<\/a>
\nFinding Your Own Guidance\u00a0<\/a>
\nThe Role of LDS Allies<\/a>
\nLove and Mixed-orientation Marriages<\/a>
\nClosing Remarks<\/a><\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

<\/h3>\n

<\/a>The Panelists<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Hello, this is Tawnya Smith, and I\u2019m your host for this teleconference, A Response to General Conference October 2013. I\u2019m pleased to introduce our panel that is here to respond to your thoughts, feelings, and concerns about the conference. We\u2019d like to first introduce the president of Affirmation, Randall Thacker. I would like to thank him for his dedication and all the work he has done since the conference to provide support for the Affirmation community. He was also instrumental in pulling off this call in such short notice. Thank you very much Randall.<\/p>\n

Also, from the Affirmation leadership I\u2019d like to introduce Tina Richerson. Tina is a vice president of Affirmation. Also on the call is Bob Rees. Currently, he teaches Mormon Studies at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, and at the University of California Berkeley. He blogs on LGBT issues at, No More Strangers LGBT Mormon Forum. And a welcome to Tim Weymann. Tim is a gay man who was raised Mormon, and is currently a licensed clinical social worker in the Salt Lake City area.<\/p>\n

This panel is comprised of individuals \u2013 some who are LDS, some who are not; some who are active, some who are inactive; some who have left the church, some who have a testimony, some who do not. We are gay, lesbian, or allies. It is our wish to welcome all perspectives and honor the feelings of everyone, even if, and when, they do not reflect our own personal views.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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We are here to speak and listen deeply to one another so that we can learn and then reflect upon our own inner truth for guidance. We are all on our own journeys and we have different needs at different points along the way.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

<\/a>The Purpose of This Panel<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0We are not here to gain a consensus or come to agreement concerning these issues. Rather, we are here to speak and listen deeply to one another so that we can learn and then reflect upon our own inner truth for guidance. We are all on our own journeys and we have different needs at different points along the way. We hope that this discussion will be helpful to you wherever you are on your journey.<\/p>\n

The purpose of this call is to create a safe space for callers to share their thoughts, feelings, and concerns, receive support, and for all of us to benefit from a rich dialogue. Because we want to create an environment where we can be completely honest and free to be ourselves, we are not going to make this call available as a recording on the website as we have done with past teleconference calls. This call is being recorded only for our own purposes for making a written account of the call. You will not be identified in any way in this account, so please feel free to be real.<\/p>\n

Our format tonight will be totally structured around the comments of you, our callers. Before we start taking calls, I would like to take a few moments to bring us together as a group. Please make sure that you are physically comfortable and that you will not be distracted if at all possible. Take a few deep breaths and release from your body the stresses of the day. Gently set them aside for now. Take a few more deep breaths, and now consider why did you want to join the call tonight? What is important about the conference? Why do we need to discuss it? Why is it important to you? If it is helpful to jot down a point or two, a question or comment, we invite you to do that right now. It might help you better listen to the call while you\u2019re waiting for your turn to speak. As you take a minute to do that, I\u2019m going to turn it back over to our operator who will give more specific instructions for how to indicate that you would like to ask a question or make a comment.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Palpable Pain and Strong Emotions<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0While we\u2019re waiting [for the first question], I\u2019d like to ask Randall Thacker to comment briefly upon his general thoughts about the General Conference and maybe talk to us a little bit about what you perceive as the reaction within Affirmation generally.<\/p>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Hello everybody, it\u2019s nice to be together with you this evening. I asked Tawnya if she would host this call for us because on Sunday I could palpably feel the pain and some of the strong emotions that were in the community. I think a very important part of what we\u2019re trying to do at Affirmation is help people be able to find peace of mind, a space of healing, and a way to move forward with their lives in a healthy and productive way. The goal of this call is for you to be able to come forth and share some of your feelings and emotions. I know that I, personally, was elated at times during conference and at other times was brought down into feelings of sadness. I experienced a range of emotions, so please feel free to share.<\/p>\n

Tawnya:<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0Thank you Randall, I appreciate you offering that.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Elder Oaks and the Meaning of Idolatry<\/span><\/h3>\n

Caller 1:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Hi, this is Caller 1. One thing I noticed, that I was wondering if I could get your reaction to, is the context of Brother Oaks\u2019 talk, was a talk that began talking about the Ten Commandments and how those for gay marriage are violating the commandment of having no other gods before me, which seemed like a bit of a stretch, but what I took from it was the whole new ground of basic doctrine that could be a bit disturbing. I am wondering where people think this is headed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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We tend to think of idolatry as worship of pagan gods or gods made of stone or wood, but… anything could become an idol or false god to us, even the Church itself.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Bob:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>We tend to think of idolatry as worship of pagan gods or gods made of stone or wood, but as I understand that particular part of the Ten Commandments, especially within the context of how the idea of idolatry is presented elsewhere in scripture, it seems that anything could become an idol or false god to us, even the Church itself. Even if we feel we are completely in accord with church teachings, we still might be guilty in placing our emphasis somewhere other than on the Lord. This is why the first commandment is to love the Lord with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength. It\u2019s interesting that there are those qualifiers, and it\u2019s also interesting that the first of these is the heart. When we truly love God in this way, we are much less likely to place our devotion on false gods or to idolize something that we shouldn\u2019t, because the love of God has a power to keep us centered\u2014keep him in our hearts and our hearts on him. It\u2019s easy for each of us to look at others and feel like they are worshipping false gods, and of course there\u2019s a lot of that going on in our culture, but I think we need to be careful not to use that commandment in a way that is too judgmental.<\/p>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Would others on the panel like to respond, as well? When I was reading the conference talk today, it occurred to me that if one was putting God first, and as many people at the Affirmation conference shared, they shared moments of personal revelation that they knew that they were gay, and that they were completely loved by the Divine, or Heavenly Parents. In that sense, I would interpret it to mean that if you did not go forth on that knowing, on that deep personal revelation, to not go forward and follow that prompting, that guidance, for whatever reason \u2013 church or family or whatever \u2013 that could be construed as a form of idol worship. You could look at this both ways. The title on Dallin Oaks\u2019 talk was \u201cAre we serving priorities or gods before the God we profess to worship?\u201d If the God that we worship is telling us to love our partners and our families, I think we better consider doing that, even if someone else would interpret it differently.<\/p>\n

Caller 1:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I agree entirely with what you\u2019re saying, but it doesn\u2019t really address my question. It seems, and my concern is that this is opening up a whole new front of ways for local people to start hassling gay and lesbian Mormons because it\u2019s reducing it to a pretty simple commandment. I\u2019ve already seen a bit of it in our own area. There\u2019s been a lot of talk and concern about it from two different stakes here. Members saying, \u201cuh oh, it\u2019s open season here again.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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Each of us is ultimately responsible for three things: getting our own confirmation of what we are taught, seeking for inspiration and revelation, and doing what we can with our lives in relation to the truths we understand.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0There\u2019s no getting around the difficulty that this talk presents a problem to a number of people. From my point of view, there\u2019s no way to soften the blow that many experienced in hearing it. If one looks at the history of the church, however, there have been a number of instances in which there have been matters difficult for the members to comprehend or follow, so I think that it is important to keep in mind that, as the Church teaches, besides being itself, God\u2019s most precious gift to us is our agency. I had the students in my Mormonism class at UC Berkeley this semester watch general conference. In the discussion we had later, I asked them what major themes they observed in the conference addresses. One student replied, \u201cI was really surprised how much an emphasis there is on agency in Mormonism.\u201d I said, \u201cYes, that\u2019s very key. The principle of agency and personal revelation are two of the grounding principles of the Restoration, which means each of us is ultimately responsible for three things: getting our own confirmation of what we are taught, seeking for inspiration and revelation, and doing what we can with our lives in relation to the truths we understand. That ultimately places responsibility on each person, and there is a tendency in Mormonism for us to shift that responsibility to someone else, including general authorities. So each person is responsible for how he or she responded to Elder Oaks\u2019 address\u2014and any personal decisions or actions based on it.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Handling Anxiety or Depression over General Conference Remarks<\/span><\/h3>\n

Caller 2:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I also felt similar to Randall, with moments of elation and also moments of great sorrow during this past conference, and I had been comforted by a lot of things I read the last few days, the Radio West interview, John Gustav-Wrathall\u2019s post about the conference. My question is about the reconciliation between these two different emotions \u2013 the elation and great sorrow. I wondered if anyone on this panel has insights as to how to reconcile these two feelings and how to not let it become overwhelming and a point of anxiety or depression.<\/p>\n

Tim:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Part of the difficulty comes from the incongruence, these things that don\u2019t come together, and I think we\u2019re really set up for this kind of thinking in our culture, in Mormonism, that things have to go completely, it\u2019s either this or that. One strategy is validating all the truth. The sense of “I was very elated and I’m feeling very sad” \u2013 that both things don\u2019t negate each other, that there\u2019s a layer of acceptance to it. I know that doesn\u2019t resolve the situation, but it could soften the edges. Accepting that this is how it is, and this is what I\u2019m going to do, which is the second part of that. It\u2019s very hard because you want congruence, but I think that\u2019s part of the setup, trying to force congruence where there isn\u2019t any.<\/p>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Having watched and listened to conference for 60 years now, the emotional ups and downs that many experienced in listening to the different speakers are not peculiar to this particular conference. Most people find particular sermons or authorities who speak to them and others who clearly do not. The emotional barometer at any given conference likely fluctuates, and if we look at that in the context of conferences in the 19th century that were often contentious and openly confrontational, I think that may give us some perspective and ultimately remind us that our individual relationship with Deity is the loadstar of our religion, and that should exist to some extent independent of the fluctuations, contradictions, and conundra, and paradoxes that are inevitable in any human organization.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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It\u2019s important to take time, especially after an event, to really go into what you are feeling and work through it a little bit and see what\u2019s underneath it.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I would also like to say that for me, when I\u2019m in a situation where I\u2019m having different emotions happening at the same time, it\u2019s useful for me to use the arts as a container for what I\u2019m thinking or feeling. Many people like to write poetry or journals. It\u2019s important to take time, especially after an event, to really go into what you are feeling and work through it a little bit and see what\u2019s underneath it. You don\u2019t want to go too deeply and get stuck there. If you feel you\u2019re in a really vulnerable place, I wouldn\u2019t recommend it, but there\u2019s something really useful to work with those feelings and see if there\u2019s a message for you. Sometimes when I\u2019m having those feelings, there\u2019s some sort of action that I need to take or there\u2019s something that I need to do or say to someone, sometimes I need to just feel those feelings until I\u2019m finished feeling them. Sometimes in our very busy society we tend to want to get rid of our feelings very quickly and move on to the next thing, without feeling bad while we\u2019re trying to do other important things. But I think that especially when we\u2019re experiencing elation and deep sorrow, as you said, both of those deserve equal time. If you take equal time with them, I think they will balance. You might understand something about yourself and what your needs are if you take time to draw out or to write a poem or just journal about it a bit, and see if that might be helpful to you.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Relying on the Spirit to Interpret General Conference<\/span><\/h3>\n

John Gustav-Wrathall (Caller 3):<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Bob, something that you said resonated with me when you were talking about how it\u2019s a very typical conference to go and, like you said, connect with certain things and not connect with others. It was very interesting to me that at this conference, the very first talk in the first Saturday session was Elder Hales, and he specifically talked about how one of the main purposes of attending conference is to not just listen to the words of the speaker themselves, but to listen to what the Spirit is telling you. I frequently have this experience at church, not just at conference, where there are things that a speaker might say that, as I\u2019m listening, will trigger my own internal questioning or thought process. Sometimes I will get spiritual insights that may sometimes even be the opposite of or contrary to what is explicitly being said. Sometimes there will be a questioning process in my own head, and I\u2019ll say \u201ccan that be right?\u201d and I seek and get my own revelation sometimes right there on the spot. That\u2019s one of the reasons I keep a notebook with me at church, so I can jot those insights down as I listen to them. I thought it was quite wonderful that Elder Hales introduced conference basically by saying this is how we listen to conference. We don\u2019t just listen to what\u2019s being spoken, but we listen to what the Spirit is telling us. I\u2019ve found that really helpful.<\/p>\n

I think certainly listening to Elder Oaks\u2019 and Elder Nelson\u2019s talk, I think that I\u2019ve heard those messages about marriage enough that it didn\u2019t shock me. It wasn\u2019t something that really struck me as something I wouldn\u2019t expect to hear at conference. I heard a lot of things in those talks that I really liked and that really resonated with me. I actually liked what Elder Oaks had to say about idolatry. I think that there are a lot of ways by which we become idolatrous in our culture, within our Mormon culture, we can become very idolatrous in many ways. In terms of thinking how do I relate to my fellow brothers and sisters in the church, when I go to church next Sunday, rather than the starting point of the conversation being \u201cgee, this talk was really awful,\u201d there are things we can talk about that were positive, and that begins a certain conversation we can have that hopefully will deepen our relationships. I wouldn\u2019t get discouraged by this, and say there\u2019s no place for me, so I\u2019m not going to engage with the church. I think that would be very harmful by people who need us there and need to be encouraged by our lives and our experience.<\/p>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0John, I appreciate what you said, and I read your blog. I listen to conference with two sets of eyes, two sets of ears, and two hearts. One of them my own, and one for that person out there that I think might be having difficulty. I think of the young people I met at Affirmation who came away from that conference full of hope and the desire to go back to church and to seek fellowship, or at least hopeful that they might be able to at some point. As I was listening to that talk, I felt in my heart that some of them were going to be depressed over that. I felt that Elder Holland\u2019s talk maybe should have been the very last in the conference, talking about depression, because I think it was inevitable that some people were going to find [Elder Oaks\u2019 talk] very difficult, and our task is going to be trying to help those people bridge from there back to their hope.<\/p>\n

<\/a>General Conference and the Recent Supreme Court Decision<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Bob and John, how much do you think the Oaks and Nelson talks were inevitable, considering the Supreme Court ruling that happened between the last conference and this one? Didn\u2019t the church actually need to clarify a position, and in a way, haven\u2019t they repositioned this, in a way, making it a moral issue, because they know, in a sense, that there\u2019s not really a legal issue?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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What was disappointing to me at the conference \u2013 no one seemed to be articulating that other very hopeful, very positive part of\u00a0MormonsAnd Gays.org<\/a><\/strong>, which is accept, love fellowship, invite.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0The answer is no. I say this because that message is already so clear. How many of us in the Mormon universe are not clearly aware of that position, especially because it\u2019s so adamantly articulated on the church\u2019s website? What was disappointing to me at the conference was that no one seemed to be articulating the other very hopeful, very positive messages onMormonsAndGays.org<\/a>, which are accept, love fellowship, and invite our LGBT brothers and sisters. I don\u2019t remember hearing one speaker say those words in relation to gays. It was more the imbalance, the contrast, between the message which was not articulated and the one that was. I try to listen to each address with two minds, two hearts and two sets of eyes and ears, and I couldn\u2019t help feel the anguish that I imagined many gay and lesbian saints felt during Elder Oaks\u2019 address.<\/p>\n

John:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Bob, I think that they did try to articulate that, although they did not do it very clearly. Both of them made statements about how God loves all people, and so on, so there were pieces of their messages that were intended to echo some of the messages on the\u00a0MormonsAndGays.org<\/a>\u00a0website, but they didn\u2019t really explicitly draw that out, and they so explicitly talked about marriage as a political and social and moral issue that obviously that was going to drown [the former] out. I agree with you that they probably didn\u2019t technically need to, but I am sure that they felt they needed to, and I thought it was interesting, especially in light of the letters that were written to the Hawaii stakes, which pretty explicitly acknowledged that members of the church are on different sides of this political issue. It did kind of make me wonder if there was worry on the part of some leaders, and maybe specifically on the part of Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson that people are worried that things are changing too fast, people wondering Is the church losing its voice, and so on. I can see how leaders may have worried about that and how that fear and concern may have motivated what happened.<\/p>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Frankly, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s ever any worry about the church moving too fast.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Using Our Free Agency to Chart Our Journey<\/span><\/h3>\n\n\n\n
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Where I\u2019m at is a different space now, and luckily, in a very affirming ward, [but] I recognize, and I think it\u2019s important for every individual to listen to what\u2019s best for them.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I would just like to throw in that we are all in very different spaces. Years ago, I couldn’t have gone actively to church and heard a talk like that. It would have been impossible for me to emotionally and mentally feel good and to be able to live my life in a healthy way. Where I\u2019m at is a different space now, and luckily, in a very affirming ward, [but] I recognize, and I think it\u2019s important for every individual to listen to what\u2019s best for them. I would hate for someone to feel that because other people are going back to church that that\u2019s [what they should do, too] because that may not be the healthiest space for them, and I know that for me, being away for a while was very helpful to me. It provided a way for me to really hear myself, and to know what I really felt God wanted for me. I want to add that as an option \u2013 I almost hate to use that word, but it leans on agency.<\/p>\n

John:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Let me ask one question. I hear what Randall is saying, and I appreciated what Bob said. I think it\u2019s right for the focus of the conversation to be on those who are most vulnerable. I\u2019ve definitely become aware, in the last few days, of people who have been devastated by this, and it\u2019s kind of heartbreaking to learn about individuals who have been almost completely shut down by what happened. Those in that situation need to be our primary concern. My question, of Randall, would be, does it make a difference to be able to see other LGBT folks who are active in the church, who did attend conference, who attend our wards, who are finding some ways to cope? Does it help to have people who are in that place present? Is that reassuring? Or is this really a thing where no one can really help and it\u2019s just something you need to figure out on your own?<\/p>\n

Randall:<\/strong>\u00a0<\/em>That\u2019s a really good question, John, thank you for asking. For certain people, for me, I really wanted to walk back in the door, authentically as a gay man, openly, and have no reservations of what would happen to me. It was when I reached the point where I didn\u2019t give a darn what would happen to me that I walked back in that door. But it had to come from deep, deep, down inside me. I don\u2019t think I would really recommend \u2013 I hope people reach deep down inside and follow what, and when, it feels right, if that\u2019s the choice they\u2019re going to take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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The church is just a finger pointing at the moon, it\u2019s not the actual moon itself, to quote a Buddhist saying. We have to keep our relationship with the moon open, and take all of our pain to God directly and say, what am I supposed to do with this? I need some help now! That\u2019s my mechanism.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

<\/a>The Church as \u201ca Finger Pointing to the Moon\u201d<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tina:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I\u2019ve been thinking about- to get back to John\u2019s question \u2013whether it\u2019s beneficial for people to stay in the church or for LGBT LDS people to be seen at church. I think #1, it\u2019s not important for anyone else aside from the person experiencing it. I read a blog or post that said If you\u2019re thinking about leaving the church over this, consider the people who need to see good examples and active LGBTQ people at church. Consider the youth, consider being an example. First and foremost, that\u2019s important, but I agree with Randall that it has to come from your own place of safety. If it\u2019s ever not safe to be at church \u2013 for years it wasn\u2019t safe for me to be at church, I just couldn\u2019t handle it, and I left until I could navigate into a safe space with myself and my relationship with Heavenly Father. In that safety, I was really truly relying on God and not anyone else. Not what I heard in conference, not relying on what my Bishop told me, but simply the soul-searching and finding the strength from Father, the Spirit, and the Atonement, and really utilizing all of the good things from conference that were said.<\/p>\n

What I got from conference was the power of the Atonement, and I let that, those things, feed me, instead of let them hurt me. I focus on my relationship with God and let him show me what to do and try not to worry about the rest, because there\u2019s so much. My mind wants to take me places where it could be unhealthy, and I just try to focus on following the Spirit and the love and embodying the parts of the doctrine that make me whole. You can\u2019t always pick and choose, but we can try, wherever we are. Remember this \u2013 the church is just a finger pointing at the moon, it\u2019s not the actual moon itself, to quote a Buddhist saying. We have to keep our relationship with the moon open, and take all of our pain to God directly and say, what am I supposed to do with this? I need some help now! That\u2019s my mechanism.<\/p>\n

<\/a>We Are All Entitled to Personal Revelation<\/span><\/h3>\n

Caller 4:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0How are you guys? I am happy to finally be back on a call again; it\u2019s been a tough few months here. I think some of the topics that have been raised are really, really important, and I appreciate everything that\u2019s been shared. I kept thinking of myself before the Affirmation Conference, which I so wish I could have been a part of, how much wonderful press the Affirmation Conference is getting via Steve and Barb, when you have someone visible like that within the church, I kept wondering when is it going to be addressed because people listen and people watch, I believe members of the church certainly did. I don\u2019t want to diminish the good that happened through that, because I think that was a huge step forward as far as LGBT people and their allies.<\/p>\n

My father\u2019s a Patriarch, and I always think back to the time that Prop 8 was going on, and a friend of mine, a wonderful friend of the community, felt the pressure from his local leaders and ended up giving to Prop 8. He was in the entertainment industry, and that got out, and it became so uncomfortable for him that he ended up leaving his job, even though his employers really wanted him to stay on, and were going to stand behind his right to give to whatever he wanted to, and I remember having some thoughts about that and talking with my father. And my father\u2019s first thing was exactly what\u2019s been said over and over today, which was that he looked at me and said you know, no one in our family gave to Prop 8 because at the end of the day, we\u2019re all entitled to personal revelation, and so everyone has that. It\u2019s always given me comfort in how we\u2019re dealing with what we\u2019re hearing from the pulpit. But I\u2019m old, that\u2019s easy for me to say now, I\u2019m comfortable with myself and the most important thing to me is my relationship with my Father in Heaven.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Dealing with Hurtful Messages<\/span><\/h3>\n

Caller 4 Continues:<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0I go back to the question that was asked and what Randall was saying about maybe those young people, that felt this huge sense of love at the Affirmation Conference, to be followed by this, and what they may be feeling walking back into their wards and stakes and having somebody possibly look down at them because of those words, and if people in our community are strong, and there are a lot of them that are, and are going to church, I think the question might become, to some young people, are they coming because they agree with what Elder Oaks said, are they agreeing with the fact that maybe they made a mistake here. I think an effort\u2019s important to possibly invite young people or allies or anyone who\u2019s a part of the community, to go with them to fulfill whatever spiritual needs we need, I think that\u2019s an important message. I don\u2019t think that going necessarily means that you agree with everything that is said there, but if people need that for a sense of community, I think the best we can do is say \u201cI don\u2019t agree with everything that was said there. There is a part of me that wants to go to church and continue to fulfill that part of me spiritually.\u201d My question to someone on the panel, or anyone that can answer, are we getting any sort of emails or messages that some people are nervous to go back to church, and are we offering any thoughts or suggestions to them?<\/p>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I think that would be a marvelous thread to start somewhere. The beautiful thing about social media is how quickly we can develop ideas and solutions, and anybody can do it. That\u2019s a great idea, and I would encourage anyone who is listening to this call, to compile those ideas and stick them on the Affirmation Facebook page, or email them to\u00a0LDSaffirmation (at) gmail (dot) com<\/a>\u00a0and we\u2019ll collect and compile them.<\/p>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0So, you\u2019re suggesting people on the call contribute their own ideas about how to support people who may be feeling vulnerable right now about going back to church after conference. I would also like to ask Tim what your advice would be about how there was a time, for Randall and Tina, when going to church wasn\u2019t healthy for them, and can you offer some ideas to help some of the people who are listening to discern when is it healthy and when is it not healthy, what warning signs or stress signs are important to listen to in terms of internal cues so people aren\u2019t putting themselves in a difficult situation?<\/p>\n

<\/a>Strategies to \u201cSoften the Blow\u201d<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tim:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Every person is different, but I think there are some general things, I think like the previous caller who talked about the emotional factors, I think that what we have a tendency to do is when things aren\u2019t fitting, we internalize and blame ourselves, so the cue could be feeling sad or dejected, but then what we do from that cue to resolve that cue is blame ourselves instead of recognizing that that\u2019s the cue that this doesn\u2019t jive and this isn\u2019t right. Externalizing the message instead of internalizing it. That\u2019s one strategy for minorities to deal with. I really encourage people to be really intentional, again that other caller, I really liked how you recommended the journaling \u2013 what is it about this situation that\u2019s so uncomfortable about these things not reconciling? Sitting with that with curiosity rather than fear will provide you with an answer to what your boundaries are and what\u2019s safe for you. But you\u2019re certainly in a quandary being in that type of setting because you don\u2019t always know, it always has the potential to be unsafe to you. That\u2019s true for all LGBT people, wherever we are, but especially more so in some of these conservative religious settings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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This will be a requirement, if you\u2019re in the church as an LGBT person, to have some level of detachment for your psychological health. An ability to separate yourself when things like this are spoken, otherwise it really will crush your soul.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

I would say going in with a safety plan, counting on that if you do choose to go in, it will happen, not in a sense of denial but realism, knowing the limits of what you\u2019re going into, so that you have a plan of when this happens, I will…. And following through with that \u201cwill.\u201d When I go and this is said, I am going to do this…. Those are some strategies to mitigate, to kind of soften the blow. Those are the main things I would add. We certainly are setting ourselves up if we\u2019re not recognizing the reality of the situation, and the whole setup is that chain of disappointment: I want Elder Oaks to say this, and he doesn\u2019t, so I\u2019m sad, and what do I do with that? A lot of it goes back to that acceptance piece, acknowledging where people are at, not in the sense of accepting it as your truth but accepting that\u2019s where they are, and then finishing the story by that\u2019s where they are and this is what I\u2019m going to do. This autonomy idea, Tina was touching on it, and Randall has, where you have a detachment, at least some. This will be a requirement, if you\u2019re in the church as an LGBT person, to have some level of detachment for your psychological health. An ability to separate yourself when things like this are spoken, otherwise it really will crush your soul.
\n<\/a><\/p>\n

A Testimony of Your Wholeness<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>There are definitely times when it\u2019s safer than others, and that has to do with how you\u2019re feeling about yourself or how strong a sense of self you have. If you\u2019re confused about what you\u2019re about, you might be feeling more vulnerable than when you\u2019re sure and confident. I just think of at the Affirmation Conference hearing all the testimonies of people saying they had a sense of personal revelation, where they knew they were gay and loved, that that was how they were made, that they were sure of that. If you have that testimony of wholeness, you have a sort of strength that gives you a confidence that when you hear something, you\u2019re still going to feel sad or maybe rejected, but you\u2019re still going to know what your guidance is, but if you\u2019re still discerning that, trying to figure out what is God\u2019s message to me, or maybe I\u2019m angry and don\u2019t even want to talk to God because I\u2019m so frustrated \u2013 I know I was in that place for a while \u2013 if you are still struggling and going back and forth between messages from the outside and what are your internal messages, I think it\u2019s really important for you to be honest with yourself about what you really need to preserve or maintain a sense of stability within yourself. I know that was important for me for a time when I couldn\u2019t attend a church. Later, I could, but there was definitely a time I didn\u2019t know myself well enough, and I needed some space and time to figure that out, and Tina and Randall both touched on that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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There are two ways to have safety \u2013 you are either around safe people or you make it safe. The moment that that person you hoped or thought was going to be safe, when they become unsafe, it is your job to make it safe for you.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

<\/a>You Are Responsible for Your Safety<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tim:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0What I would add to that is to really simplify what I was saying earlier: There are two ways to have safety \u2013 you are either around safe people or you make it safe. The moment that that person you hoped or thought was going to be safe, when they become unsafe, it is your job to make it safe for you. That may be doing some of the things you were just saying, it may be simple mental efforts, reframing what you\u2019re hearing, mentally rejecting what you\u2019re hearing. It could be physical things like getting up and leaving, turning something off, getting other points of view by talking to other people about it, like what we\u2019re doing now. The underlying foundation is that you\u2019re responsible for your safety, and you have two ways of doing that \u2013 being with safe people or making it safe.<\/p>\n

<\/a>The Meaning(s) of Love<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>This email question\u00a0(Caller 5<\/strong><\/em>) says the following: It seems to me that Elder Oaks is trying to make a distinction between God and love. He classifies our sexuality, or more accurately the nature of our love for others, as a behavior, as idolatry, and most important as something contrary to God himself. The primary reason that these ideas conflict with my own is that in my understanding the primary purpose of the plan of salvation and the fundamental nature of God, is love. My understanding is that God and love should and cannot be divorced from each other. I would like to know the reaction of the panel towards this juxtaposition made by Elder Oaks. Also, how do we move forward with our efforts to help others understand this, when revered and powerful leaders of the church continue to establish the nature of our love as some sort of sinful, foolish infatuation?<\/p>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0One of the difficulties is that we have one word \u2013 love \u2013 for so many kinds of deep (and sometimes not so deep) and complicated human emotions we associate with that word. When we equate God with love, I think we have to be more precise as to the kind of love we associate with deity\u2014that of which the gospels, John\u2019s letters, and Moroni speak– the pure love of Christ. There are many other kinds of love, of course, including the range of intimate love between humans. One of the truths of the Restoration is that romantic, erotic and sexual love are part of our divine inheritance and therefore part of our promised eternal glory. One of the difficulties is that our culture has refused to acknowledge that non-heterosexual love in its complexity and multiplicity fundamentally is no different from heterosexual love. That is, on the experiential level, deep intimate bonding, deep emotional connectedness is common to all healthy humans.<\/p>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Because that precision was not used in the talk, is that potentially exploitive, then, in maybe blurring the boundaries by what is meant by love? Blurring them up and confusing the issue. It\u2019s basically making it seem like persons that are gay or lesbian can\u2019t possibly have a divinely inspired love for one another, and I have a personal testimony that that is not true. I believe that I do love my partner and that is a very sacred love. Is the Oaks talk really taking advantage of the imprecise description of the word love here, and using it to suggest that gays and lesbians can\u2019t possibly have that kind of love?<\/p>\n

<\/a>Marriage and Procreative Powers<\/span><\/h3>\n\n\n\n
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It is in a sense like growing up in a family in which every child is promised an opulent Christmas, only to wake up on Christmas morning to find that all of the other children in the family have multiple Christmas gifts and surprises, but there are none for you.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Elder Oaks says that outside the bonds of hetero-normative marriage all uses of our procreative powers are to one degree or another sinful. Most sexual expression among humans does not focus on procreation but rather on physical, emotional and spiritual intimacy. To think of this complicated and even mysterious amalgam of expressions and emotions as primarily procreative is to somehow diminish their richness and complexity. Again, part of Joseph Smith\u2019s enlightened understand is that our sexual powers, expressions and pleasures are gifts beyond that of procreation.<\/p>\n

Also, we need to keep in mind that church doctrine and practice on the use and expression of sexuality have been quite elastic at times. In the 19th century under the practice of polygamy there were many kinds of marital relationships, some of which were procreative and some that were not, some that were sexual and some that were not, and some that were eternal and some that were not. Elder Oaks was very clear, as the church\u2019s website is, as to what is acceptable and what isn\u2019t in the eyes of the contemporary church, What I sense most gays and lesbians want the Church to recognize is that from their earliest years the Church itself teaches all children (whether they turn out to be gay, bi or straight) to desire, plan, and prepare themselves for that deep intimate connection with another person who ultimately completes them fulfills them, and makes them whole. This is taught at their parents\u2019 knees, in primary, in Sunday school, in young women\u2019s and young men\u2019s programs, in seminary\u2014everywhere. No one can grow up in the Church without understanding that his or her crowning achievement in life is to find that special someone and create a mortal and eternal nuclear family unit. To devote one\u2019s life to that objective and then be told that it is not a possibility, at least in this life, and that what and whom they truly desire is also not a possibility in the eternities, causes a profound existential crisis, one that can unravel all prior teachings and obliterate future promises. It is in a sense like growing up in a family in which every child is promised an opulent Christmas, only to wake up on Christmas morning to find that all of the other children in the family have multiple Christmas gifts and surprises, but there are none for you.<\/p>\n

Thus, something that is absolutely given in every normal human being to desire and that the church itself emphasizes as the great crowning achievement of human beings is denied to a significant group of people. As a church we have not and currently do not have any idea as to what this must feel like for gays and lesbians. Not only have we have failed to understand our gay and lesbian saints, we often blame them for not being sufficiently patient, acquiescent and righteous.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Same-sex Couples and Sexual Desire<\/span><\/h3>\n\n\n\n
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They see that only as some kind of sexual desire, and there\u2019s no acknowledgement that LGBT people have a type of love that’s not lust or just sexual desire, but that there is a clear, undeniable, unmistakable longing to be united with that other person in that sense of oneness that you were just describing.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0In Elder Nelson\u2019s talk, he\u2019s talking about appetites, about freedoms from self-slavery and things like this, then goes right into defining marriage, specifically. To me, that is exactly what this caller is getting to. The Church sees any sexual relationship between two men and two women, they see that only as some kind of sexual desire, and there\u2019s no acknowledgement that LGBT people have stated and told bishops and leaders in the church that they have a type of love, that it\u2019s not lust or just sexual desire, but that there is a clear, undeniable, unmistakable longing to be united with that other person in that sense of oneness that you were just describing. To me, that is very problematic, especially for people who know that to be true, that they know they are meant to be with that person, to love that person, and that is something they are being called to do by their Heavenly Parents. The juxtaposition of the word appetite, and then suggesting that that\u2019s all that LGBTQ people experience, again, is kind of offensive, at least to me.<\/p>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I was forwarded, first thing Monday, by a colleague who knows about my work in the LGBT community, the article in the Washington Post, and I found it profoundly ironic that they talked about Oaks\u2019 talk, and right after talked about President Monson expressing his loss for his wife and says \u201cShe was the love of my life, my trusted confidant and closest friend. To say that I miss her does not begin to convey the depth of my feelings.\u201d And that is love. That is the love that same-sex relationships feel. To answer the original question, as we just live our lives in that kind of love and relationship, we will have to be patient for people to see that it is real love. I know a couple who has been together for 40 years, one now getting sick with Alzheimer\u2019s, his partner\u2019s caring for him in all the ways that my mother and father have cared for each other in their troubles as well. It’s our demonstration of that same kind of love, I don\u2019t know any other way for us to really overcome that stereotype.<\/p>\n

<\/a>The Importance of Making Safety for Oneself<\/span><\/h3>\n

Caller 6:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Mine is more related to making safety for yourself. It’s a comment. When my son started junior high, he was having some trouble adjusting to the changes, and being with ninth graders. The assistant principal told him \u201cI know this is tough. You\u2019re welcome to come in here and cry to me whenever you want, or if I\u2019m not here close the door and you can cry yourself, but when you\u2019re in the hall, I want you to hold your head up high. Do not cower. Do not invite bullying.\u201d Knowing who your allies are \u2013 if you want to go to church and already have some identified \u2013 make contact with them. Let them know you need their support. Don\u2019t put yourself in a situation where you\u2019re inviting bullying. Don\u2019t call up the person you know is waiting to hear those words, on Sunday, and then get both barrels from that person. You just don\u2019t have to do that. You can protect yourself. I would invite comments on how to identify our allies. Some of us know that our bishop is our ally. Maybe just connecting with him or someone else in our ward if you want to go to church.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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Even though two or three apostles came out and blatantly said what they said, creating a certain type of environment, the 99% majority of people attending church are sensitive to what we\u2019re experiencing as a culture.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Tina:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>It has been my experience that #1 in church, people are not necessarily going to attack you, because we are raised to be kind and gentle, Mormons, in my experience, are trying to be kind and gentle. I\u2019ve never met a person, in church, who would ever say anything harmful or hurtful to me, when I let them know that I\u2019m a lesbian. I take a lot of comfort in that. I would say that to the person who does want to still attend church, even though two or three apostles came out and blatantly said what they said, creating a certain type of environment, the 99% majority of people attending church are sensitive to what we\u2019re experiencing as a culture. I\u2019ve had so many people reach out to me saying \u201cAre you okay?\u201d People I go to church with asking me, that was probably a hard conference for you, and I\u2019m here. I\u2019ve had a great outpouring of concern from my member friends.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Responding to Hurtful Comments<\/span><\/h3>\n

Caller 6:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I have a ward member from Europe who is very blunt. He has tried to line me up with women. I say, \u201cI don\u2019t think that\u2019s going to work out.\u201d He says, \u201cYou\u2019re going to settle for guardian angel, then?\u201d That can be very hurtful. Certainly the Montgomery\u2019s have described that or worse in their ward.<\/p>\n

Tina:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>It\u2019s true that people can be people. They can be harsh and they can be rude and just being Mormons doesn\u2019t make everybody super nice and lovely, it\u2019s true. You\u2019re right. But maybe drawing on what Caller 4 said, being prepared with some ammunition when someone is vicious or malicious, if that happens what are you going to do? What is your response?<\/p>\n

Caller 6:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0My point is don\u2019t cower, don\u2019t invite the bullying.<\/p>\n

Tina:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Reaching deep and finding a point of calm. I struggle with that myself \u2013 I don\u2019t even want to say nice words right now when people, I just have the blinders on so severely and they ask you the stupidest questions or they say the stupidest things, the most hurtful things, how to find that place of letting go of my gut reaction and saying something mindful. Something not reactionary but thought provoking to them, or just pointing that they are being really mean. Sometimes that goes a long way. \u201cThat\u2019s not a nice question. That hurts my feelings.\u201d There\u2019s a lot to be said for that. I think often people don\u2019t realize what they\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n

Caller 6:<\/strong>\u00a0Or \u201cDid you intend to be mean just now?\u201d<\/p>\n

Tina:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Perfect, that\u2019s a perfect response. \u201cDid you intend to squish me like that? Is that what Jesus would do? Would he just step allover my emotions? Do you realize that\u2019s what you just did?\u201d That will definitely disarm a situation for sure.<\/p>\n

Caller 6:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0And if you can do it with good humor, too.<\/p>\n

Tina:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Yeah, this is such a heavy topic, and we\u2019re all walking around with our hearts on our sleeves. It is nice to try and approach it with a little less severity, even though that\u2019s really difficult to do. I\u2019m forty, and have been living with this my whole life and am just now at a place where I can say you\u2019ve got your head in the wrong space, friend, and try to make light of it.<\/p>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0What about when the bullying or confrontation comes not in a one-on-one situation, but it comes in someone\u2019s testimony in testimony meeting, or comes in someone\u2019s talk that they\u2019re giving, and it\u2019s more of a blanket situation? I think sometimes people might hide in that situation because there is not that one-to-one element.<\/p>\n

Tina:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0You\u2019re right, Tawnya, that definitely is the hardest situation, when in Relief Society there\u2019s a talk on chastity, and there\u2019s a paragraph all about homosexuality, and how it\u2019s all bad no good, and how to sit in there and just let it pass. Just let it pass and realize you\u2019re in a particular situation, and perhaps the best way to address it is going later to the person who gave the talk and doing it one-on-one, or even being super bold and super courageous, and stopping the class and saying, Look, I am that person that you\u2019re naysaying, that will definitely change the environment of the group, but you definitely want to be sitting by a good friend.<\/p>\n

Caller 6:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0There have been posts on Facebook about speaking up in Sunday School. I think Randall had many people come up and offer support afterwards, and thank him.<\/p>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0Thank you Caller 6 for helping us to process about more direct issues, with other people at church and how to maybe keep ourselves protected, and how to speak up in good ways, hopefully to dispel some of the myths and help people realize when they\u2019re being insensitive.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Finding Your Own Guidance<\/span><\/h3>\n

Another email (Caller 7):\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>Why should I stay in the church when it seems like most of the prophets and apostles and local leaders and membership in general don\u2019t want us here? Or, if they do want us here, it seems like it is only conditional on us changing in ways that we can\u2019t, by denying our homosexuality? I have an inkling that President Uchtdorf meant this to be part of his message even if he didn\u2019t say it outright.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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Get to the point where you see that full, beautiful, harvest moon, and feel God\u2019s love that\u2019s really big, and you can decide if that pointer to the moon is going to help you in growing in that relationship.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I want to go back to what Tina said about the moon, the church not being the moon but pointing its finger at the moon. First of all, maybe step back and detach yourself from the question of going to church or not, and attach yourself to the question of what do I really feel? And what does my relationship with God really mean? Get to the point where you see that full, beautiful, harvest moon, and feel God\u2019s love that\u2019s really big, and you can decide if that pointer to the moon is going to help you in growing in that relationship. If it is, maybe find an ally in your local area who could help you find a safe space. When I decided to go back, the Elders Quorum president approached me that first day. He wanted to come visit, and I told him if you come visit, this is what you\u2019re going to find. And he said that\u2019s ok, that\u2019s ok. He talked to the bishop and told me later that night \u201cthe bishop\u2019s fine, don\u2019t worry about it.\u201d You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re ward is going to do. There are people out there who will take you as you are, and who will put your to work. And there are leaders up above, in headquarters, who are fighting for us. But many of them, their hands are tied. The first, most important thing is to see that beautiful harvest moon yourself and then make the decision that\u2019s best for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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The most important thing is your relationship to the Divine, and that you\u2019ll know whether it is right for you based on what guidance you\u2019re given. What are you called to do? It has really nothing at all with other people and other people\u2019s views or opinions or beliefs about you.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I know of a person who was a member of the church for over forty years, who has since removed their name from the records. I know this person very well, and in this person\u2019s experience, she feels that she is not called to stay in the church, that she is to search for truth and meaning and the love of God, and at least at this time in her life, it\u2019s absolutely correct for her to do that outside of the church. I know that in my personal experience, I went through a period of being away and coming back and being away, and I felt that I was following my guidance at all of those points. I would reiterate what Randall was saying, the most important thing is your relationship to the Divine, and that you\u2019ll know whether it is right for you based on what guidance you\u2019re given. What are you called to do? It has really nothing at all with other people and other people\u2019s views or opinions or beliefs about you. It has everything to do with what is your guidance telling you and follow it. Don\u2019t worry about that and don\u2019t be worried about if it changes 2 years from now or 5 years from now or 10 years from now, but continue listening to what is really best for you in your heart.<\/p>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I edited a collection a couple of years ago called\u00a0Why I Stay: The Challenges of Discipleship for Contemporary Mormons<\/em>\u00a0and I\u2019m working on a second volume right now. I would encourage people to read these personal stories of faithfulness because sometimes it helps to see why other people have made the decision to stay and how they\u2019ve negotiated that territory. I think it\u2019s much more challenging for an LGBT person because generally if a heterosexual member decides to come back to church h or she is greeted with open arms, but for gays or lesbians it can be like walking across minefield. I recommend to my LGBT friends who feel the urge to reconnect with the church inquire as to the openness of the ward they are considering attending and the flexibility of the bishop before venturing a return. Nothing is more discouraging than to make an effort to return and find that it is not a safe or hospitable congregation or an open and compassionate bishop.<\/p>\n

<\/a>The Role of LDS Allies<\/span><\/h3>\n

Sherri Park (Caller 8):<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I\u2019m in\u00a0Mormons Building Bridges<\/a><\/strong>, and the leadership would have really liked to be on this call, but they\u2019re doing another LGBT activity tonight. I\u2019m taking good notes, though, for them. I want to talk about the \u201cSit with me Sunday\u201d that I did last year. I got this idea, I felt like it was revelation, and what we had over and over was many people wanting to sit with someone, and not being able to find an LGBT person to come to church with them. I wanted to say that we\u2019ve had some absolutely devastated people on our website this week, and have been trying to work through letting them vent and letting other people comfort them. We\u2019ve had some veiled suicide threats. It\u2019s been a rough couple of days here. I want to do this \u201cSit with me Sunday\u201d again, and hope you can help with that.<\/p>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0We\u2019d love to help out, Sherri.<\/p>\n

Sherri:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0It\u2019ll be on the website, and I\u2019m trying to match people up. Most people will say I don\u2019t know anybody, but we\u2019ll try it again this year, maybe at Christmas.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Love and Mixed-orientation Marriages<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0A man sent this in (Caller 9): My wife is gay, and President Monson\u2019s talk brought her to tears for most of the rest of the day. She said she wanted what he had with his wife, even though we love each other very much. It prompted a lot more questions about our marriage and our plans for the future, divorce, eternal friendship together, etc. This gentleman is saying that his wife is gay, is longing for the kind of love that President Monson described, which we\u2019ve already discussed a little bit. Would anyone like to respond to this?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
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I find this absolutely heartbreaking. It illustrates… the failure of heterosexual Latter-day Saints to truly understand that what they desire is no different than what their lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender fellow Saints desire.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Bob:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I find this absolutely heartbreaking. To me it illustrates what I said earlier about the failure of heterosexual Latter-day Saints to truly understand that what they desire is no different from what their lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender fellow Saints desire. In their book\u00a0The God Who Weeps: How Mormonism Makes Sense of Life,<\/em>\u00a0Terryl and Fiona Givens talk about that deep longing for intimacy that is such a part of who we are, and that none of us feels complete without it. Many people find this love, some find it and lose it, and some never find it, but continue to hope for its possibility. To be denied even the possibility of such love in mortality is to suffer an enormous loss, a blow to one\u2019s very soul. I feel that those of who are heterosexual need to awaken our greatest imagination and compassion for this dear woman and all of those who suffer as she does. Beyond that, I feel we need to petition the heavens constantly on behalf of all of those who wake up on Christmas morning expecting that what has been promised to them will be fulfilled, not on some faraway future Christmas but on the very one in which the rest of us open our gifts, which, after all, are made possible by our Lord and Savior who gave the greatest gift of all and who makes all gifts possible.<\/p>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I\u2019m wondering if Tim would have any general advice around what they might do to address this.<\/p>\n

Tim:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0A relationship is so unique, whether it\u2019s a relationship between you and the church or you and a significant other, whether it\u2019s a mixed orientation marriage or not. However, the implication I\u2019m getting in that is there\u2019s something stirring in this current relationship, and my heart goes out to both of those people involved. It\u2019s reevaluation time for what they want and what is important to them in their relationship, and that could be coming to terms with what can\u2019t be or even mean changing things. It\u2019s a very complicated situation, but I don\u2019t know that any of us have an answer other than support, emotional support as people process. I would echo what Bob says, our culture has made this recipe clear, it seems like that. I would just encourage this person to have compassion and patience with himself and his wife, because they were both doing the best that they knew how with what information they have, and that\u2019s what they\u2019re currently doing, and now it\u2019s probably time to seek even more information. I don\u2019t know that I would say anything beyond that.<\/p>\n

<\/a>Closing Remarks<\/span><\/h3>\n

Tawnya:<\/em><\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve covered a lot of different territory. We don\u2019t have any more calls or emails, but let\u2019s go around our panel quickly for a final statement or closing word.<\/p>\n

Tina:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I\u2019m very happy to be on this panel and hear the concerns. It is my hope and deepest desire that people are able to deeply root in themselves their relationship and feel the power of God\u2019s love, and put that above and beyond anything else. And to know that love is the answer, love is always the answer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
\n\n\n\n
\n

I do have\u00a0a list of strategies for dealing with discrimination<\/a><\/strong>, stigma, maybe we could post that online so people have an idea of what to do, so you have a safety plan, something to draw back to, so that you can practice before you come across those situations.<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n<\/td>\n<\/tr>\n<\/tbody>\n<\/table>\n

Tim:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>I do have\u00a0a list of strategies for dealing with discrimination<\/a>, stigma, maybe we could post that online so people have an idea of what to do, so you have a safety plan, something to draw back to, so that you can practice before you come across those situations.<\/p>\n

Bob:\u00a0<\/strong><\/em>I really appreciated what thoughtful questions the callers asked, how sensitive they were, and I appreciated the response of my fellow panelists. I come away with two lasting impressions: one, the deep caring, love, and concern, expressed in this discussion, and, in contrast, the suicide ideation that plagues so many of our young LGBT brothers and sisters.. None of us should be indifferent to the fact that many of our best and brightest have chosen that ultimate exit because they could find no consolation, no hope. It is imperative that we change our church culture so that never happens again. None of our intransigence, our lack of charity, our lack of emotional caring is worth one of those many suicides. I hope none of those who listened to conference came away with that impulse.<\/p>\n

Randall:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I\u2019m continually learning from all of you and I take great joy in the love that we feel in this Affirmation community, and I hope that we go out and spread that with others.<\/p>\n

Tawnya:<\/strong><\/em>\u00a0I\u2019m going to close our call tonight with a quote from Elder Oaks\u2019 talk: \u201cA moral coward is one who is afraid to do what he thinks is right because others will disapprove or laugh. Remember that all men have their fears but those who face their fears with dignity have courage, as well.\u201d<\/p>\n

May we all go to our Creator to discern if we are in right relationship, seek to do our best to be loving and kind to others, and find the courage to face our fears that we may have dignity and peace.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

El 9 de octubre, Afirmaci\u00f3n patrocin\u00f3 una teleconferencia para discutir la reciente Conferencia General SUD, que incluy\u00f3 declaraciones del \u00e9lder Oaks y el \u00e9lder Nelson, condenando el matrimonio entre personas del mismo sexo. Lo que sigue es una transcripci\u00f3n de la discusi\u00f3n.<\/p>","protected":false},"author":25,"featured_media":12689,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_piecal_is_recurring":false,"_piecal_recurring_interval":1,"_piecal_recurring_frequency":"","_piecal_recurring_exact_position":false,"_piecal_recurring_end":"","_piecal_color":"","_piecal_text_color":"","_piecal_global_color_master":false,"_piecal_rsets":"[]","_piecal_is_event":false,"_piecal_start_date":"","_piecal_end_date":"","_piecal_is_allday":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[1849],"tags":[189,190,53,47,191,188],"newsletters":[],"class_list":["post-1574","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-blog","tag-agency","tag-discussion","tag-general-conference","tag-integrity","tag-panel","tag-revelation"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nRevelation, Agency, and Integrity: A Discussion of Comments Made in General Conference<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/affirmation.org\/es\/revelacion-agencia-e-integridad-una-discusion-de-comentarios-hechos-en-conferencia-general-2\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"es_MX\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Revelation, Agency, and Integrity: A Discussion of Comments Made in General Conference\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"On October 9 Affirmation sponsored a conference call to discuss the recent LDS General Conference, which included statements by Elder Oaks and Elder Nelson, condemning same-sex marriage. 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